DISQUS

Andy Beard - Internet Business Systems Discussion: PageRank Sculpting Isn't Dead But Comments Can Kill Your PageRank

  • Webshoptimizer - Mat · 6 months ago
    Back to the oldschool javascript links.

    But in a way, how bad can the "evaporating" be? Time will tell, I guess. I'm sure a lot of websites have to redesign their structure.
  • AndyBeard · 6 months ago
    It is impossible to determine the extent of the evaporating, but the evaporating would probably be similar to the way PageRank can evaporate with pages blocked with Robots.txt, which has happened for 10 years, in amounts impossible to really determine and quite possibly also variable.
  • Webshoptimizer - Mat · 6 months ago
    Back to the oldschool javascript links.

    But in a way, how bad can the "evaporating" be? Time will tell, I guess. I'm sure a lot of websites have to redesign their structure.
  • AndyBeard · 6 months ago
    It is impossible to determine the extent of the evaporating, but the evaporating would probably be similar to the way PageRank can evaporate with pages blocked with Robots.txt, which has happened for 10 years, in amounts impossible to really determine and quite possibly also variable.
  • wisgrove · 6 months ago
    I always unapprove some comments in my site if its come from nofollow site... :) actually I don't wily understands about this post, seem I have to read it over and over.. btw..thanks for your info.
  • AndyBeard · 6 months ago
    If you don't understand the post, just read some of the resources in the introduction or don't worry about it - I highly doubt PageRank will evaporate from comment links in Google's new implementation of the way they handle PageRank
  • wisgrove · 6 months ago
    I always unapprove some comments in my site if its come from nofollow site... :) actually I don't wily understands about this post, seem I have to read it over and over.. btw..thanks for your info.
  • AndyBeard · 6 months ago
    If you don't understand the post, just read some of the resources in the introduction or don't worry about it - I highly doubt PageRank will evaporate from comment links in Google's new implementation of the way they handle PageRank
  • paul · 6 months ago
    its interesting to note that people are trying to beat the optimisation process by trying to get their sites to the top. this is obviously good for business, Google however, must work in a way that the important information which gets searched about reaches the user. so a lot of the old linking strategies are now obsolete in the sense that they were only used to boost business instead of abiding by the rules!
  • AndyBeard · 6 months ago
    Up until this point (after the techniques have been used for 6 years) Google has done nothing to discourage the use of dynamic linking using javascript and later nofollow, and in the video, which could be looked on as official, only recently released, Google (well Matt Cutts) is still suggesting that nofollow can be used on thngs like login pages.

    Imagine if you had a sales page for a membership site that only had 3 links, one to legal papers, one a design credit link, and the third to a login page.

    If the juice from the login link evaporates, then a third of the juice that could be passed to the 2 other links just evaporates.

    This isn't about gaming Google, and SEO isn't about gaming Google. Sure it is competitive, but the primary aim is to help good companies rank for the terms that end users are using to search for their goods, services or information.

    One of the more technical aspects is PageRank distbutribution - it is not just helping a single page rank higher, but ensuring that as many relevant quality pages of content are actually indexed and have a chance to rank.
  • paul · 6 months ago
    its interesting to note that people are trying to beat the optimisation process by trying to get their sites to the top. this is obviously good for business, Google however, must work in a way that the important information which gets searched about reaches the user. so a lot of the old linking strategies are now obsolete in the sense that they were only used to boost business instead of abiding by the rules!
  • AndyBeard · 6 months ago
    Up until this point (after the techniques have been used for 6 years) Google has done nothing to discourage the use of dynamic linking using javascript and later nofollow, and in the video, which could be looked on as official, only recently released, Google (well Matt Cutts) is still suggesting that nofollow can be used on thngs like login pages.

    Imagine if you had a sales page for a membership site that only had 3 links, one to legal papers, one a design credit link, and the third to a login page.

    If the juice from the login link evaporates, then a third of the juice that could be passed to the 2 other links just evaporates.

    This isn't about gaming Google, and SEO isn't about gaming Google. Sure it is competitive, but the primary aim is to help good companies rank for the terms that end users are using to search for their goods, services or information.

    One of the more technical aspects is PageRank distbutribution - it is not just helping a single page rank higher, but ensuring that as many relevant quality pages of content are actually indexed and have a chance to rank.
  • Stuart Flatt · 6 months ago
    Quite a few articles bouncing around about this over the past week, this is however by far the best!

    Good thoughts on the subject and it is something I will monitor.
  • Stuart Flatt · 6 months ago
    Quite a few articles bouncing around about this over the past week, this is however by far the best!

    Good thoughts on the subject and it is something I will monitor.
  • Mikael Rieck · 6 months ago
    I definitely agree that more people should read Revenge of the Mininet. I've printed it and read it three times and it is pure gold. My only constraint (to talk in Schrefren terminology) is that I still haven't found a way that I can build the net (and keep it going) while still doing my normal day to day work. But hopefully I will some day because there is no doubt that it is powerful stuff.

    Mikael
  • Michiel · 6 months ago
    Anyone who is serious and has a real interest that has not read Revenge of the Mininet is missing out on some of the useful "need to knows". Michael and Andy have a huge knowledge base which they draw on and share it which is the best news ! I do agree the ability to work and try to concentrate on your goals for your site itself are often a struggle but with all the information we can gather these days it will happen!
  • Mikael Rieck · 6 months ago
    I definitely agree that more people should read Revenge of the Mininet. I've printed it and read it three times and it is pure gold. My only constraint (to talk in Schrefren terminology) is that I still haven't found a way that I can build the net (and keep it going) while still doing my normal day to day work. But hopefully I will some day because there is no doubt that it is powerful stuff.

    Mikael
  • Cassiano Travareli · 6 months ago
    It's really interesting the points that you are making in your post . I don't know why google is doing this big change! Let´s wait for more information coming from Google!

    Regards

    Cassiano Travareli
  • Cassiano Travareli · 6 months ago
    It's really interesting the points that you are making in your post . I don't know why google is doing this big change! Let´s wait for more information coming from Google!

    Regards

    Cassiano Travareli
  • Cash Makers · 6 months ago
    Second that, Revenge of the Mininet is an awesome reads. It sure gives some explanations you may want to know.

    Regards
  • Cash Makers · 6 months ago
    Second that, Revenge of the Mininet is an awesome reads. It sure gives some explanations you may want to know.

    Regards
  • Dan Thies · 6 months ago
    Hey Andy -

    I was at that SMX session to moderate the Q&A and really, didn't take Matt's comments as being quite as significant as some of the livebloggers did - it was very CuttsSpeak, and could just as easily be "spun" differently.

    "Maybe" Matt will actually say something clear about this at some point.

    What Danny Sullivan and others wrote up was along the lines of:
    PR(A) = (1-d) + d(PR(t1)/C(t1) + ... + PR(tn)/C(tn))
    aka PageRank
    being applied in such a way that C(t1...n) is based on the total number of links on t1...tn, but PR(t1...tn) is only part of the calculation for A when a link from (t1...tn) is followed.

    Since that's not the same old calculation, we have a little work to do.

    Leslie's writing the code, we're going to run all the "simulations" tonight to demonstrate what happens in that scenario, as well as illustrate how PageRank may appear to "evaporate" due to sculpting without modifying the algorithm at all, and I'll have a detailed post up by Monday.

    I'm also, just for fun, writing up the paranoid conspiracy theory version of a new treatment of nofollow links, called the "BENDOVER algorithm."
  • AndyBeard · 6 months ago
    Of the SMX coverage links, that is why you got the first.

    You almost gained a "Source of Knowledge" link too, but I think Leslie and Michael probably deserve the limelight a little more, though you benefit from the STSE links too. Looking forward to the Monday post, and the "takeitlikeaman" algo.
  • Dan Thies · 6 months ago
    Hey Andy -

    I was at that SMX session to moderate the Q&A and really, didn't take Matt's comments as being quite as significant as some of the livebloggers did - it was very CuttsSpeak, and could just as easily be "spun" differently.

    "Maybe" Matt will actually say something clear about this at some point.

    What Danny Sullivan and others wrote up was along the lines of:
    PR(A) = (1-d) + d(PR(t1)/C(t1) + ... + PR(tn)/C(tn))
    aka PageRank
    being applied in such a way that C(t1...n) is based on the total number of links on t1...tn, but PR(t1...tn) is only part of the calculation for A when a link from (t1...tn) is followed.

    Since that's not the same old calculation, we have a little work to do.

    Leslie's writing the code, we're going to run all the "simulations" tonight to demonstrate what happens in that scenario, as well as illustrate how PageRank may appear to "evaporate" due to sculpting without modifying the algorithm at all, and I'll have a detailed post up by Monday.

    I'm also, just for fun, writing up the paranoid conspiracy theory version of a new treatment of nofollow links, called the "BENDOVER algorithm."
  • AndyBeard · 6 months ago
    Of the SMX coverage links, that is why you got the first.

    You almost gained a "Source of Knowledge" link too, but I think Leslie and Michael probably deserve the limelight a little more, though you benefit from the STSE links too. Looking forward to the Monday post, and the "takeitlikeaman" algo.
  • Brian Hancock · 6 months ago
    I was at the Matt Cutts Q&A during SMX Advanced. My take is this:

    = Google may just be looking to discourage users from aggressively using nofollow because they see it as potentially gaming their system
    = nofollow never really did what Matt Cutts said it did in the first place..

    I personally never got aggressive with nofollowing links but do it occasionally. Bottom line is Matt Cutts' comments aren't going to change my approach whatsoever...
  • AndyBeard · 6 months ago
    I gained a similar impression from copious reading, though on some sites I use it very aggressively.
  • Brian Hancock · 6 months ago
    I was at the Matt Cutts Q&A during SMX Advanced. My take is this:

    = Google may just be looking to discourage users from aggressively using nofollow because they see it as potentially gaming their system
    = nofollow never really did what Matt Cutts said it did in the first place..

    I personally never got aggressive with nofollowing links but do it occasionally. Bottom line is Matt Cutts' comments aren't going to change my approach whatsoever...
  • AndyBeard · 6 months ago
    I gained a similar impression from copious reading, though on some sites I use it very aggressively.
  • Rasim Muratovic · 6 months ago
    I hope google will keep it how it is. If they make the changes it will suck for people's pr.
  • Rasim Muratovic · 6 months ago
    I hope google will keep it how it is. If they make the changes it will suck for people's pr.
  • Geobak · 6 months ago
    I read at search engien land that google can read javacript now etc and that you should put the no follow tag at javascript as well...

    Strange but oh well

    I just have one question

    Wikipedia is no following all external links to other pages except theirs.Are they going to be devalued or smt liek that?


    Personally at one of my sites i no follow almost 97% od links to other websites trying to "direct" the linkjuice within my own website?

    Will this be dangerous for my website from now on?I am not afraid of a ban (i doubt it wil happen) i am more afraid of losing my rankings on several competitive terms that i have achieved so far...

    Thank you in advance and i am looknig forwar to an answer pls
  • AndyBeard · 6 months ago
    Nofollowing all external links is stupid - you just become like Wikipedia. You also end up gaining less links.

    If you read the post I mentioned I have seen no effect on Wikipedia rankings, but you would need to have a thorough understanding of PageRank calculations to understand why, which is why I included references where you can really learn this stuff.
  • Geobak · 6 months ago
    I read at search engien land that google can read javacript now etc and that you should put the no follow tag at javascript as well...

    Strange but oh well

    I just have one question

    Wikipedia is no following all external links to other pages except theirs.Are they going to be devalued or smt liek that?


    Personally at one of my sites i no follow almost 97% od links to other websites trying to "direct" the linkjuice within my own website?

    Will this be dangerous for my website from now on?I am not afraid of a ban (i doubt it wil happen) i am more afraid of losing my rankings on several competitive terms that i have achieved so far...

    Thank you in advance and i am looknig forwar to an answer pls
  • AndyBeard · 6 months ago
    Nofollowing all external links is stupid - you just become like Wikipedia. You also end up gaining less links.

    If you read the post I mentioned I have seen no effect on Wikipedia rankings, but you would need to have a thorough understanding of PageRank calculations to understand why, which is why I included references where you can really learn this stuff.
  • John S. Britsios · 6 months ago
    I posted a similar comment as below at SEOMOZ but it have been ignored. So what do you all think here?

    My question is: If it is true that PageRank Sculpting was or is now a myth, what is with Bots Herding?

    For example:

    If page A has a followed link to page B, and the page B has a meta robots tag with a “noindex” directive, or using the unofficially supported my Google "noindex" directive (on my own risk), and page B has a link back to page A.

    What should I expect to happen in that case?
  • AndyBeard · 6 months ago
    Noindex doesn't affect PageRank, at least not necessarily - pages with noindex accumulate PageRank and pass it on like before, though I have read a few people speculate that pages that are indexed might pass more meaningful juice, but that is speculation.
    I don't noindex category and tag pages.
  • John S. Britsios · 6 months ago
    I posted a similar comment as below at SEOMOZ but it have been ignored. So what do you all think here?

    My question is: If it is true that PageRank Sculpting was or is now a myth, what is with Bots Herding?

    For example:

    If page A has a followed link to page B, and the page B has a meta robots tag with a “noindex” directive, or using the unofficially supported my Google "noindex" directive (on my own risk), and page B has a link back to page A.

    What should I expect to happen in that case?
  • AndyBeard · 6 months ago
    Noindex doesn't affect PageRank, at least not necessarily - pages with noindex accumulate PageRank and pass it on like before, though I have read a few people speculate that pages that are indexed might pass more meaningful juice, but that is speculation.
    I don't noindex category and tag pages.
  • Steve, affiliate marketer · 6 months ago
    This is a interesting post Andy,
    I was introduced to Revenge of the Mininet early last year by Chad Kimball
    And now have 20 of my sites networked pushing every drop of link juice to the main site with the money page on. Is this still viable, or am I likely to lose rank and juice from the internal linking set-up.
  • AndyBeard · 6 months ago
    Most of the linking structures can be achieved without using Dynamic linking, though it certainly requires a little more thought
  • Steve, affiliate marketer · 6 months ago
    This is a interesting post Andy,
    I was introduced to Revenge of the Mininet early last year by Chad Kimball
    And now have 20 of my sites networked pushing every drop of link juice to the main site with the money page on. Is this still viable, or am I likely to lose rank and juice from the internal linking set-up.
  • AndyBeard · 6 months ago
    Most of the linking structures can be achieved without using Dynamic linking, though it certainly requires a little more thought
  • Keep-Tube · 6 months ago
    Dear Andy, Thanks for this informative post. I found it really helpful and I am going to exploit its ideas.

    Can you please elaborate more on your last comment: Most of the linking structures can be achieved without using Dynamic linking, though it certainly requires a little more thought

    Can you explain what you have in your mind?

    Thank you!
  • Keep-Tube · 6 months ago
    Dear Andy, Thanks for this informative post. I found it really helpful and I am going to exploit its ideas.

    Can you please elaborate more on your last comment: Most of the linking structures can be achieved without using Dynamic linking, though it certainly requires a little more thought

    Can you explain what you have in your mind?

    Thank you!
  • Dominic Joelson · 6 months ago
    Hi! Thanks Andy for keeping me informed. I have a good earnings in my site because of information like these. I have learned a few things from you in a short period of time that I've been reading your posts.

    I have already a website but I still believe that there should be a continuous updates to experience continuous success. Thanks for being so good and sharing "gold mine" information like this.
  • Dominic Joelson · 6 months ago
    Hi! Thanks Andy for keeping me informed. I have a good earnings in my site because of information like these. I have learned a few things from you in a short period of time that I've been reading your posts.

    I have already a website but I still believe that there should be a continuous updates to experience continuous success. Thanks for being so good and sharing "gold mine" information like this.
  • goddess strapless bra · 6 months ago
    I personally think pagerank is useless unless you are trying to sell links on DP.
    None of my sites have external links and I have not seen any changes to my PR or SERP's.
    My PR has never dropped for my main pages only for internal pages and that's because of the link structure I use (Designed it myself). I will keep an eye on this for a while to see if anything changes.
    No follow all external links make no sense at all there would be no votes for new sites and only the pages on your site could vote for the pages on your site. SERP's would never change and Bing would be the best search Engine on the web.
    Well, Google has the smartest minds working in their labs so if they change the No-follow then I'm sure they will dream up something better. Just don't change my SERP's that's all I ask please.
    Revenge of the Mininet is a great read by the way.
  • AndyBeard · 6 months ago
    You have no idea what PageRank any of your pages have, because you can't see it.

    Toolbar PageRank has value, otherwise I wouldn't get so many people looking to spam links coming to my blog.

    Then I delete their links, or their whole comment
  • goddess strapless bra · 6 months ago
    I personally think pagerank is useless unless you are trying to sell links on DP.
    None of my sites have external links and I have not seen any changes to my PR or SERP's.
    My PR has never dropped for my main pages only for internal pages and that's because of the link structure I use (Designed it myself). I will keep an eye on this for a while to see if anything changes.
    No follow all external links make no sense at all there would be no votes for new sites and only the pages on your site could vote for the pages on your site. SERP's would never change and Bing would be the best search Engine on the web.
    Well, Google has the smartest minds working in their labs so if they change the No-follow then I'm sure they will dream up something better. Just don't change my SERP's that's all I ask please.
    Revenge of the Mininet is a great read by the way.
  • AndyBeard · 6 months ago
    You have no idea what PageRank any of your pages have, because you can't see it.

    Toolbar PageRank has value, otherwise I wouldn't get so many people looking to spam links coming to my blog.

    Then I delete their links, or their whole comment
  • Cornelia Cunningham · 6 months ago
    In my opinion it's a two way process. You give and you take. But this post is really informative and insightful. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
  • Cornelia Cunningham · 6 months ago
    In my opinion it's a two way process. You give and you take. But this post is really informative and insightful. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
  • dave · 6 months ago
    What Matt says makes a lot of sense... there are other ways to do PR sculpting.

    I do use nofollow to indicate page importance, so I hope they don't change it that much.
  • dave · 6 months ago
    What Matt says makes a lot of sense... there are other ways to do PR sculpting.

    I do use nofollow to indicate page importance, so I hope they don't change it that much.
  • Lee · 6 months ago
    Hey Andy. I think I'm still just as confused about Matt's comments as ever.

    Let's consider internal links only for a moment. Say you have 10 links on a page -- 5 go to pages that you want good search results for, and 5 do not (such as login pages). The old thinking was that by no following the unimportant pages, you now passed MORE juice to the do follow internal links.

    From Matt's comment, I'm assuming "evaporation" means that each link is created equal. Your no follow tells google where not to pass the juice. But it doesn't add this juice to the do follow links. It's like juice just spilling on the floor :)

    I'm just hard pressed to think he used a word like evaporation by accident. So that means that either google HAS adjusted (or is adjusting) their algorithm to reflect this decision. Or he lied (or more nicely put, he misled on purpose).
  • AndyBeard · 6 months ago
    I don't think he lied, plus Matt is not one of the engineers designing this.

    Lots of decisions about how links are used depend on the order things are done.

    As an example, we know there are problems with nofollowed links and first link priority, and that is a clue for PageRank as well.

    If anchor text can count on a nofollowed link, that means that the nofollowed links are not totally removed from later calculations

    We also know they appear in Google's webmaster tools

    What we don't know, just like with links blocked with Robots.txt and creating hanging/dnagling pages, is whether all of the juice is lost, or just part of it, dpending of circumstances.

    We don't even know whether links on different parts of a page influence PageRank in different ways. A login is sitewide, navigation link, not unique or even interesting anchor text, internal, maybe to SSL page etc etc. These are all factors that might reduce PR being passed even if the link isn't nofollowed.
  • Lee · 6 months ago
    Hey Andy. I think I'm still just as confused about Matt's comments as ever.

    Let's consider internal links only for a moment. Say you have 10 links on a page -- 5 go to pages that you want good search results for, and 5 do not (such as login pages). The old thinking was that by no following the unimportant pages, you now passed MORE juice to the do follow internal links.

    From Matt's comment, I'm assuming "evaporation" means that each link is created equal. Your no follow tells google where not to pass the juice. But it doesn't add this juice to the do follow links. It's like juice just spilling on the floor :)

    I'm just hard pressed to think he used a word like evaporation by accident. So that means that either google HAS adjusted (or is adjusting) their algorithm to reflect this decision. Or he lied (or more nicely put, he misled on purpose).
  • AndyBeard · 6 months ago
    I don't think he lied, plus Matt is not one of the engineers designing this.

    Lots of decisions about how links are used depend on the order things are done.

    As an example, we know there are problems with nofollowed links and first link priority, and that is a clue for PageRank as well.

    If anchor text can count on a nofollowed link, that means that the nofollowed links are not totally removed from later calculations

    We also know they appear in Google's webmaster tools

    What we don't know, just like with links blocked with Robots.txt and creating hanging/dnagling pages, is whether all of the juice is lost, or just part of it, dpending of circumstances.

    We don't even know whether links on different parts of a page influence PageRank in different ways. A login is sitewide, navigation link, not unique or even interesting anchor text, internal, maybe to SSL page etc etc. These are all factors that might reduce PR being passed even if the link isn't nofollowed.
  • Joel McLaughlin · 6 months ago
    Very interesting... I have noticed that following Matt Cutts recommendations and getting your site in order before you try to really manipulate with authority from blog comments has value. Often times on brand new sites I will get one link to the site from an authority so that the site gets indexed. Then I will make weekly updates, and after the first 3 weeks or so I start obtaining links on an upward trend so that it looks natural and organic. Also, I focus on getting links from a wide variety of places:

    Forums
    Blog Comments
    Guest Blog Posts
    Directories (quality)
    Articles
    Internal Links
    EDU/Gov links
    Reciprocal links (only when necessary to obtain a great link)
    Links from other sites home pages

    That seems to work great for me, but I am sure a lot of tactics work great.
  • Joel McLaughlin · 6 months ago
    Very interesting... I have noticed that following Matt Cutts recommendations and getting your site in order before you try to really manipulate with authority from blog comments has value. Often times on brand new sites I will get one link to the site from an authority so that the site gets indexed. Then I will make weekly updates, and after the first 3 weeks or so I start obtaining links on an upward trend so that it looks natural and organic. Also, I focus on getting links from a wide variety of places:

    Forums
    Blog Comments
    Guest Blog Posts
    Directories (quality)
    Articles
    Internal Links
    EDU/Gov links
    Reciprocal links (only when necessary to obtain a great link)
    Links from other sites home pages

    That seems to work great for me, but I am sure a lot of tactics work great.
  • Trent Brownrigg · 6 months ago
    I've never been too big on nofollowing links for the purpose of controlling link juice flow anyway, simply because I never cared enough to do it much. Although I admit I have done it at times. I think it's best just to focus on building links from several different sources and let the PR do whatever it's going to do. But it is good to know what is happening with the extra PR if it's not being sent to the followed links (evaporated).
  • AndyBeard · 6 months ago
    If you are building small sites it is easy to ignore, but when you are trying to get millions of pages indexed, or even your blog archives, it can become a major issue.

    You have major indexing problems on your site, and just adding more links isn't going to help it.

    It is not something that necessarily needs nofollow - nofollow is just a tool we used to be able to use, and possibly still can, but just because you don't use nofollow doesn't mean you are not attempting to control the flow of PageRank
  • Trent Brownrigg · 6 months ago
    I've never been too big on nofollowing links for the purpose of controlling link juice flow anyway, simply because I never cared enough to do it much. Although I admit I have done it at times. I think it's best just to focus on building links from several different sources and let the PR do whatever it's going to do. But it is good to know what is happening with the extra PR if it's not being sent to the followed links (evaporated).
  • AndyBeard · 6 months ago
    If you are building small sites it is easy to ignore, but when you are trying to get millions of pages indexed, or even your blog archives, it can become a major issue.

    You have major indexing problems on your site, and just adding more links isn't going to help it.

    It is not something that necessarily needs nofollow - nofollow is just a tool we used to be able to use, and possibly still can, but just because you don't use nofollow doesn't mean you are not attempting to control the flow of PageRank
  • Pathmaker · 6 months ago
    No one knows if pr sculpting really works or is true. What we should focus on would be the pagerank value as what Michael Martinez quoted.
  • AndyBeard · 6 months ago
    Michael didn't disprove anything and as I discussed a while back, it is easy to prove that there is a need for PR sculpting, with or without the use of nofollow due to indexation problems even on Michael's own blog.
  • Pathmaker · 6 months ago
    No one knows if pr sculpting really works or is true. What we should focus on would be the pagerank value as what Michael Martinez quoted.
  • AndyBeard · 6 months ago
    Michael didn't disprove anything and as I discussed a while back, it is easy to prove that there is a need for PR sculpting, with or without the use of nofollow due to indexation problems even on Michael's own blog.
  • karlfox · 6 months ago
    This was a very insightful post. I certainly didn't factor in the time it took me to read the post and all the links you referenced but it was well worth it.

    I have also noticed this being a hot topic on a lot of the seo blogs that are around but none have gone as deep as you have and made things a clear... thank you!

    Regards,

    Karl
  • karlfox · 6 months ago
    This was a very insightful post. I certainly didn't factor in the time it took me to read the post and all the links you referenced but it was well worth it.

    I have also noticed this being a hot topic on a lot of the seo blogs that are around but none have gone as deep as you have and made things a clear... thank you!

    Regards,

    Karl
  • John Hunter · 6 months ago
    Interesting post. The evaporating page rank juice is interesting. It seems a bit strange of a way to deal with things but Google does have to keep changing to try and cope with people trying to game the system.
  • John Hunter · 6 months ago
    Interesting post. The evaporating page rank juice is interesting. It seems a bit strange of a way to deal with things but Google does have to keep changing to try and cope with people trying to game the system.
  • VPS Web Hosting · 6 months ago
    So is this saying that you can make certain links nofollow in order to increase the weight Google would put on each link on a site?

    Why would that matter when people are doing XML sitemaps where you can define the value of the page there?
  • VPS Web Hosting · 6 months ago
    So is this saying that you can make certain links nofollow in order to increase the weight Google would put on each link on a site?

    Why would that matter when people are doing XML sitemaps where you can define the value of the page there?
  • Tom · 6 months ago
    I guess, that many things Matt will let us know, is only his meaning, and no one else at Google will think so than he.
  • Tom · 6 months ago
    I guess, that many things Matt will let us know, is only his meaning, and no one else at Google will think so than he.
  • Adam Alfia · 6 months ago
    Google's pagerank and internal calculations seem like they change on a daily basis. As an entrepreneur, I am also constantly engaging in search engine optimizing efforts, and I've watched my results fluctuate on what seems like an hourly basis.

    I feel dofollow blogs are warranted in some cases, and can be abused in others. Until the search algorithms are open source and not black-box, there has to be tools for innovative start-ups to help get the word out.
  • Adam Alfia · 6 months ago
    Google's pagerank and internal calculations seem like they change on a daily basis. As an entrepreneur, I am also constantly engaging in search engine optimizing efforts, and I've watched my results fluctuate on what seems like an hourly basis.

    I feel dofollow blogs are warranted in some cases, and can be abused in others. Until the search algorithms are open source and not black-box, there has to be tools for innovative start-ups to help get the word out.
  • Keegan · 6 months ago
    That is a lot of great information. I don't like the idea of nofollow making my PR come down. I hope google makes good decisions.
  • Keegan · 6 months ago
    That is a lot of great information. I don't like the idea of nofollow making my PR come down. I hope google makes good decisions.
  • Retro Sweets · 6 months ago
    I find the use (or at least the introduuction) of nofollow to be such a strange concept. I undertsand that with so much blog spam out there webmasters will want to put off spammers by halting any juice transfer. But you have to think that if success in the SERPS is down to good content and 'content is king' then that should be the deciding factor, not whether your legitimate posts on blogs and forum is choked by nofollow.

    Also, if nofollow links start to reduce PR then will we find that true content sites start to slip and spammers start to climb as they begin to steer clear of nofollow environments and leave the real content creators to continue posting as they always have.

    I just find it had to believe that so much research at Google leads us to this point where the spammer will inevitably find a way through anyway.
  • Retro Sweets · 6 months ago
    I find the use (or at least the introduuction) of nofollow to be such a strange concept. I undertsand that with so much blog spam out there webmasters will want to put off spammers by halting any juice transfer. But you have to think that if success in the SERPS is down to good content and 'content is king' then that should be the deciding factor, not whether your legitimate posts on blogs and forum is choked by nofollow.

    Also, if nofollow links start to reduce PR then will we find that true content sites start to slip and spammers start to climb as they begin to steer clear of nofollow environments and leave the real content creators to continue posting as they always have.

    I just find it had to believe that so much research at Google leads us to this point where the spammer will inevitably find a way through anyway.
  • Gareth James · 6 months ago
    I agree Google needs to make a clear statement. It does not affect most SEOs working on small sites. But, imagine if you are Rand (seomoz) working on large sites for clients and have been charging $$$$ to sculpt their Pagerank. What are you supposed to do?
  • Gareth James · 6 months ago
    I agree Google needs to make a clear statement. It does not affect most SEOs working on small sites. But, imagine if you are Rand (seomoz) working on large sites for clients and have been charging $$$$ to sculpt their Pagerank. What are you supposed to do?
  • Hip Hop · 6 months ago
    I hate when Google makes this kind of changes because I have to start making changes in all my sites, but it's ok if this will keep the web better! nice blog keep posting this kind of useful info!
  • Hip Hop · 6 months ago
    I hate when Google makes this kind of changes because I have to start making changes in all my sites, but it's ok if this will keep the web better! nice blog keep posting this kind of useful info!
  • Michael Martinez · 6 months ago
    As I have noted elsewhere, Andy's report of indexing problems for the SEO Theory blog was in error. This kind of sloppy analysis doesn't do any good for the SEO community.

    You cannot sculpt PageRank if you cannot measure it, and you cannot measure PageRank, so all the rallying cries for PageRank sculpting remain a waste of time and effort.
  • AndyBeard · 6 months ago
    Michael yes we had the discussion, and you continued to maintain an internal linking structure that limited the ability for Google to index all your content. Either PageRank sculpting or a good/better IA can help with that. I can't see "air" a mixture of various invisible to the eye molecular structures, but I can sure blow out a candle.
  • Michael Martinez · 6 months ago
    As I have noted elsewhere, Andy's report of indexing problems for the SEO Theory blog was in error. This kind of sloppy analysis doesn't do any good for the SEO community.

    You cannot sculpt PageRank if you cannot measure it, and you cannot measure PageRank, so all the rallying cries for PageRank sculpting remain a waste of time and effort.
  • AndyBeard · 6 months ago
    Michael yes we had the discussion, and you continued to maintain an internal linking structure that limited the ability for Google to index all your content. Either PageRank sculpting or a good/better IA can help with that. I can't see "air" a mixture of various invisible to the eye molecular structures, but I can sure blow out a candle.
  • A.herosandian · 6 months ago
    I've learned about SEO, please guidance from you. One of the interesting in the world of blogging is about PR. I have several questions:
    1. I often give a lot of comment in the blog, whether automatically increase page rank?
    2. Do I have to choose a blog comment? such as a blog with PR1 and over, thank you hopefully be able to give an explanation for me as a beginner

    Best regard,
    A.herosandian
  • AndyBeard · 6 months ago
    Ignore PageRank when commenting, build relationships with people in your niche - it is just a bonus.
    If you have a lot of comments on your blog, based on clarification today by Matt Cutts, it could have a negative effect.

    Switch to using Disqus for comments
  • A.herosandian · 6 months ago
    I've learned about SEO, please guidance from you. One of the interesting in the world of blogging is about PR. I have several questions:
    1. I often give a lot of comment in the blog, whether automatically increase page rank?
    2. Do I have to choose a blog comment? such as a blog with PR1 and over, thank you hopefully be able to give an explanation for me as a beginner

    Best regard,
    A.herosandian
  • AndyBeard · 6 months ago
    Ignore PageRank when commenting, build relationships with people in your niche - it is just a bonus.
    If you have a lot of comments on your blog, based on clarification today by Matt Cutts, it could have a negative effect.

    Switch to using Disqus for comments
  • Sassyqarla · 6 months ago
    I can see a lot of advantages if you have a high PR like 6 or 7, specially if your site is indexed by Google News. I still don't know if the "follow" links are punished by Google.
  • Sassyqarla · 6 months ago
    I can see a lot of advantages if you have a high PR like 6 or 7, specially if your site is indexed by Google News. I still don't know if the "follow" links are punished by Google.
  • Geobak · 6 months ago
    Why is it THAT bad to become like wikipedia? :)


    Wikipedia is dominating the serps for many competitive terms....

    What is more from the discussion at Cutts' blog i want to keep his statement that PageRank isn’t spread equally among links and hasn’t been for years and years



    So the big question is what technique do you think would be the most appropiate to apply on blogs?

    what should be no followed?
  • AndyBeard · 6 months ago
    I have provided an example structure, I know it works as at least one site I know using it gets 400,000 or so visits a day, and probably more soon as I adapt based on new information.

    We have known for a long time that links are not treated equally.

    I have also written today that 95% of bloggers should use Disqus as they don't know what they are doing with PageRank sculpting, and would find it difficult implementing an alternative solution.
  • Geobak · 6 months ago
    Why is it THAT bad to become like wikipedia? :)


    Wikipedia is dominating the serps for many competitive terms....

    What is more from the discussion at Cutts' blog i want to keep his statement that PageRank isn’t spread equally among links and hasn’t been for years and years



    So the big question is what technique do you think would be the most appropiate to apply on blogs?

    what should be no followed?
  • PAT Testing · 6 months ago
    Your right about some of this, but I thing your wong that your site can be harmed by it
  • PAT Testing · 6 months ago
    Your right about some of this, but I thing your wong that your site can be harmed by it
  • Ben Cornelius Videography · 5 months ago
    I wonder how much of this whole discussion is speculative opinion and how much is provable fact. Seems like the search engines are doing a pretty good job of being very secretive about the whole thing. How can we really know the way this all works?
  • AndyBeard · 5 months ago
    That is certainly true, though many SEOs believe that Google are masters of doublespeak
  • Sourav · 6 months ago
    this will kill the whole blogging community.
  • Sourav · 6 months ago
    this will kill the whole blogging community.
  • Chris · 6 months ago
    Thank you for the great SEO insight. I really appreciate reading about how to use SEO to increase page rank. I just really want to get away from the PR 0.

    Thanks!!
  • ManuelViloria (Manuel Viloria) · 6 months ago
    Learning about PageRank Sculpting - http://bit.ly/13PsDp (SEO goodness!)
  • Neil · 6 months ago
    Interesting post. I'm looking forward to the WordPress SEO Masterclass!
  • James @ Money 4 Idiots · 6 months ago
    I've read this post twice now and I also read Matt Cutt's original post and I'm struggling to understand exactly what the answer is in regards to whether to add nofollow. I'm thinking of taking the nofollow attribute off my own blog and just ignoring it altogether (it will save some time in mucking around with the coding). Thanks for the mininet download, though. I'm going to go through that now until my brain gives out and see if it shed any light.
  • Necrologist · 6 months ago
    Maybe if you to have some moderation on commenting, I guess it will not kill you page rank totally huh
  • AndyBeard · 5 months ago
    Most blogs following most WordPress SEO guides out there, would face extremely negative effects from this change, if it was the whole story
  • Tim · 5 months ago
    I have seen many websites got decent PR by just commenting on different blogs (both no-follow and no-follow). This may not be an ethical technique and can be termed as spamming if somebody posting irrelevant comments just for links. But websites are getting PR anyhow.
    Its really a serious matter of research.
  • AndyBeard · 5 months ago
    Let me know a non payday loan site (that Matt Cutts would be happy I linked to) I should change all your links to. I welcome you as part of my community and your contribution, but multiple comments with multiple names, all from the same IP address to multiple micro payday loan sites is just "Extracting the Michael"
  • Rick @ Business VoIP · 5 months ago
    Could someone explain why the use of javascript for PageRank sculpting is not really very good for accessibility? Does it have something to do with form validation?
  • AndyBeard · 5 months ago
    Google claim they can now understand a lot of Javascript, and the links within, can pass juice.

    Accessibility of other devices is another matter.
  • Will · 4 months ago
    I don't get why people don't just focus on higher quality content instead of trying to "beat the system" and cheat their way to higher ranking.
  • AndyBeard · 3 months ago
    It isn't cheating the system, it is about optimizing the information architecture to get as much unique content indexed.
    If you have a site with 100,000+ pages of unique content, how you structure your site to get it indexed is important, and sometimes there are benefits in forcing Google to ignore certain links.
  • gauravM · 4 months ago
    Thanks for this informative post. I found it really helpful and I am going to exploit its ideas. Thanks for sharing.