Andy Beard - Internet Business Systems Discussion - Latest Comments in Dancing With The Gevil – Defamed By Google?

Re: Dancing With The Gevil – Defamed By Google?

Lisa Stewart — Sun, 04 Nov 2007 22:32:30 -0000

Hi Andy- thanks for the excellent and well thought out post and arguments FOR services like PayPerPost.

To play Gevil's Advocate- If a site (like PPP) is offering a fee to post and the fee is based entirely on Page Rank (and sometimes Alexa traffic) then why can't it be interpreted as paying for page rank?
A post coming from PPP on a PR3 site may cost advertiser 10.00 and the SAME post on PR5 is 50.00.

Why wouldn't Google seeing this as gaming PR?

Thanks,
Lisa

Re: Dancing With The Gevil – Defamed By Google?

Lisa Stewart — Sun, 04 Nov 2007 22:32:30 -0000

Hi Andy- thanks for the excellent and well thought out post and arguments FOR services like PayPerPost.

Why wouldn't Google seeing this as gaming PR?

Thanks,
Lisa

Re: Dancing With The Gevil – Defamed By Google?

Meg — Wed, 24 Oct 2007 04:17:22 -0000

Holy Cow Andy, now a PR3 - WTF?

Re: Dancing With The Gevil – Defamed By Google?

Meg — Wed, 24 Oct 2007 04:17:22 -0000

Holy Cow Andy, now a PR3 - WTF?

Re: Dancing With The Gevil – Defamed By Google?

Conservatory-Geezer — Thu, 11 Oct 2007 12:07:01 -0000

1. We are dependent on Google for traffic
2. Google depends on backlinks to rate a site
3. Anything that distorts 2., Google will penalize.

Google has made its own problem. PR has created a big business selling PR.

Solution: Do what traditional marketers have been saying all along, and find ways to promote your site outside the SEs. Then their traffic will be a happy bonus, rather than essential.

Re: Dancing With The Gevil – Defamed By Google?

Conservatory-Geezer — Thu, 11 Oct 2007 12:07:01 -0000

1. We are dependent on Google for traffic
2. Google depends on backlinks to rate a site
3. Anything that distorts 2., Google will penalize.

Google has made its own problem. PR has created a big business selling PR.

Solution: Do what traditional marketers have been saying all along, and find ways to promote your site outside the SEs. Then their traffic will be a happy bonus, rather than essential.

Re: Dancing With The Gevil – Defamed By Google?

Ruth — Wed, 10 Oct 2007 12:47:42 -0000

They are making it so hard for us small guys to get a page rank at all - I am way down on the list while these lame pages that have been there for a while but are totally unprofessional are high up on the list.

Re: Dancing With The Gevil – Defamed By Google?

Ruth — Wed, 10 Oct 2007 12:47:42 -0000

Re: Dancing With The Gevil – Defamed By Google?

PreBlogging — Tue, 09 Oct 2007 10:31:58 -0000

I am annoyed at this, it's not like they have come out and said, if you link to TLA or PPP we will dock you 1 PR point. This whole thing really makes me think that Google shoudl rethink the whole PageRank thing.

That all being said my site was reduced from a PR5 to a PR4 , and I have one PPP post and TLA ads on the home page.

Re: Dancing With The Gevil – Defamed By Google?

PreBlogging — Tue, 09 Oct 2007 10:31:58 -0000

That all being said my site was reduced from a PR5 to a PR4 , and I have one PPP post and TLA ads on the home page.

Re: Dancing With The Gevil – Defamed By Google?

Opal Tribble — Tue, 09 Oct 2007 06:30:24 -0000

Mine went from a 4 to a 3. I'm really not worried about it since most of my money is made via affiliate marketing. I mainly do affiliate marketing that on my other websites.

Occasionally I write paid posts if I think my readers would benefit but those reviews are rare and when I do them they are thorough. I treat them like a regular post.
I had a feeling mine would drop so I'm not too surprised. I picked up one direct advertiser two months ago. It's a service that many of my readers use which is why they are on my website.

I had not idea mine had even dropped until I read that one of my blogging buddies had. I really don't pay too much attention to my PR. I did check after reading their comment and I noticed mine had dropped also. It does not seem to have affected my traffic

Re: Dancing With The Gevil – Defamed By Google?

Opal Tribble — Tue, 09 Oct 2007 06:30:24 -0000

Mine went from a 4 to a 3. I'm really not worried about it since most of my money is made via affiliate marketing. I mainly do affiliate marketing that on my other websites.

Re: Dancing With The Gevil – Defamed By Google?

Jack Humphrey — Mon, 08 Oct 2007 16:54:51 -0000

I just think it's absurd that people who put out good content have to spend so much time defending themselves and their sites like this.

This whole argument I was just thinking "Andy's blog rocks. His content is over the top in quality for his educational posts and I've learned a lot reading here." That's not BS. I know all the blogs in this niche - good and bad - we track them all. This one is in the top for quality, thoughtful, insightful writing.

Andy does a way better job than me with descriptive, patient posting for clarity. This comment is going to be 10 times longer than my average post for instance. :)

So why no one can see that Google IS NOT the savior of the web and quality search results, but rather, is holding the web community back from what they do best (creating more quality content) because we have to spend so damn much time protecting ourselves from a stupid all-inclusive algorithm is beyond me.

Google is taking a deliberate and lazy shortcut by having us all turn on each other, nark out each other, and casting huge nets to catch a relative handful of spammers who wouldn't rank at all if Google would just join the web and allow user ratings to affect their rankings. You can't SEO for people! We smell BS a mile away and we dont care what is in your freakin title tag!

Leaving everything up to an algorithm without including the human element is why we are all in this position right now with pagerank.

It isn't harmless either. For Andy's reasons above and others I have been on about for years, Pagerank can hurt online businesses that are providing true service and who are not in any way damaging the web by occasionally linking a certain way.

They Say Content Is King - Why Don't They Start Acting Like It?

Either the content is good or not when people get to a site and if Google would allow human ranking to in some way enter their algo, a lot more (overly optimized, valuless) sites in the top 10 would vanish while google's goal of relevancy based on good content would finally be realized.

Everyone is so damn worried about a thumbs up or down button going with Google's rankings like people are going to spam with it. NEWSFLASH: people are already spamming google, so what's the harm in trying to fix what's been broken since the beginning?

Let the surfer have at least a minor say about the sites they like and stop trying to shove sites down our throats and hiding sites that are truly more relevant than the ones in the top rankings from people who'd appreciate viewing them.

I don't believe Google is actively "treating" you a certain way Andy. Their rules written into their algo are simple commands written from a screwed up perspective and they weren't MEANT to catch you or I up in all this, but they have.

It's not intentional, but it's still evil if they continue to ignore the damage it is causing the people who fill their engine with the content they thrive on.

Google knows how long people stay on our sites and how many pages they view. They KNOW we are quality in one area of the Googleplex, yet in the engineering department they are totally clueless about what a quality site is and how to keep one from ending up in an unfair demotion with all the spammers and link whores.

They really need to address this immediately. I'm not riding on Google's freakin' space elevator if they can't even fix their search engine problems.

Re: Dancing With The Gevil – Defamed By Google?

Jack Humphrey — Mon, 08 Oct 2007 16:54:51 -0000

I just think it's absurd that people who put out good content have to spend so much time defending themselves and their sites like this.

Andy does a way better job than me with descriptive, patient posting for clarity. This comment is going to be 10 times longer than my average post for instance. :)

Leaving everything up to an algorithm without including the human element is why we are all in this position right now with pagerank.

They Say Content Is King - Why Don't They Start Acting Like It?

It's not intentional, but it's still evil if they continue to ignore the damage it is causing the people who fill their engine with the content they thrive on.

They really need to address this immediately. I'm not riding on Google's freakin' space elevator if they can't even fix their search engine problems.

Re: Dancing With The Gevil – Defamed By Google?

Annie — Mon, 08 Oct 2007 16:42:56 -0000

Last year, my biggest blog dropped from a PR 6 to a 4. Now that I think about it, it was shortly after I added Text Link Ads code to the site. It could be a coincidence (I've seen sites drop in PR before for no particular reason), and the traffic never went down (and in fact has increased), but with all the stuff that's been going on lately on the buying-and-selling-links debate, I do wonder if that had anything to do with it.

Even though the $150 a month or whatever is pretty insignificant compared to earnings from other programs, it seems a shame to bow to Google's tyranny and remove the links just because of these threats. :\

Re: Dancing With The Gevil – Defamed By Google?

Annie — Mon, 08 Oct 2007 16:42:56 -0000

Re: Dancing With The Gevil – Defamed By Google?

lilian aka 5xmom — Mon, 08 Oct 2007 14:32:27 -0000

Just for the record, I first lose my PR5/10 on Oct 4th and over the next two days, I lost PR -1 in six of my blogs. I suppose I am famous enough to be noticed by Google. LOL, a lot of other sites did not get the penalty eventhough they write paid posts and sell text links.

Re: Dancing With The Gevil – Defamed By Google?

lilian aka 5xmom — Mon, 08 Oct 2007 14:32:27 -0000

Re: Dancing With The Gevil – Defamed By Google?

Tim — Mon, 08 Oct 2007 10:47:35 -0000

Andy,

Great analysis. I'll look for the follow-up shortly. I want to get your opinion of top bloggers (I won't name names either) that have google-legitimate thumbnail ads, but provide a monthly "thank you" link, without a nofollow attribute, in a post. As a potential advertiser, I would see this and understand that I will get this great link as part of my ad placement, even if it is not stated specifically in my placement agreement. It is my opinion that these links are bought and paid for just as much as a review link, and if google penalizes for paid reviews, they must penalize for these links as well to be consistent.

Note - I am not opposed to ads, reviews, paid links at all. I just see a) hypocrisy and b) potential for abuse if google does not address the issue one way or the other.

Tim

Re: Dancing With The Gevil – Defamed By Google?

Tim — Mon, 08 Oct 2007 10:47:35 -0000

Andy,

Note - I am not opposed to ads, reviews, paid links at all. I just see a) hypocrisy and b) potential for abuse if google does not address the issue one way or the other.

Tim

Re: Dancing With The Gevil – Defamed By Google?

AndyBeard — Mon, 08 Oct 2007 07:04:18 -0000

Well you see this is a 5 day old story in some quarters, and a lot of good sites that have been hit.

Many of them are earning $10K+ per year from links and posts, and one click down on their PR isn't actually going to change very much, especially with PPP moving over to their own metrics.

The only way for this approach to work is to kill the TBPR on all the sites, and even all the traffic. Just PPP bloggers that is 50K Bloggers.

If they have their traffic taken away, I am sure 50K bloggers can probably get the traffic by other means.

Followup post coming with some more analysis (but no snitching)

Re: Dancing With The Gevil – Defamed By Google?

AndyBeard — Mon, 08 Oct 2007 07:04:18 -0000

Well you see this is a 5 day old story in some quarters, and a lot of good sites that have been hit.

Many of them are earning $10K+ per year from links and posts, and one click down on their PR isn't actually going to change very much, especially with PPP moving over to their own metrics.

The only way for this approach to work is to kill the TBPR on all the sites, and even all the traffic. Just PPP bloggers that is 50K Bloggers.

If they have their traffic taken away, I am sure 50K bloggers can probably get the traffic by other means.

Followup post coming with some more analysis (but no snitching)

Re: Dancing With The Gevil – Defamed By Google?

Halfdeck — Mon, 08 Oct 2007 06:44:37 -0000

"You can try your best to defend this with whatever you want (like you defended your 6 laser targeted links to the SEO consultant"

To be fair, I wasn't attacking Andy's business practices. The linking practices are way blacker than Andy's. I'm not going to sugarcoat that. My point was that on initial scan, the links didn't pass the smell test, not for me at least. With a Google reviewer, I doubt anyone gets a chance to clarify.

Anyway, it looks like your suspicions were right on the mark Andy. What Google's doing with the toolbar is idiotic.

Re: Dancing With The Gevil – Defamed By Google?

Halfdeck — Mon, 08 Oct 2007 06:44:37 -0000

"You can try your best to defend this with whatever you want (like you defended your 6 laser targeted links to the SEO consultant"

Anyway, it looks like your suspicions were right on the mark Andy. What Google's doing with the toolbar is idiotic.

Re: Dancing With The Gevil – Defamed By Google?

Toby — Mon, 08 Oct 2007 05:50:10 -0000

All "Blog-Whores" that even show buttons and links to those sites will be penalized by Google automatically. You will have a a white page rank in the long-term, of course.