Andy Beard - Internet Business Systems Discussion - Latest Comments in Blogging Full Disclosure Debacle – Grow Some Brass Ones

Re: Blogging Full Disclosure Debacle – Grow Some Brass Ones

Chuck — Fri, 13 Jul 2007 17:38:41 -0000

I realize I'm late to the party on this, but this interview just finally made it to iTunes a couple days ago. I like and respect both Shoemoney and Rand Fishkin very much (not personally...don't know them...probably never will). But in different ways and in different reasons.

Jeremy is very much a street-level guy. He speaks very plainly, he's out there hustling for every dime he can pick up. He's got a high profile... but unlike John Chow, who seeks it out... Shoe just seems to draw attention because he's pretty flamboyant in his bluntness. He doesn't want anyone looking up to him. He investigates everything himself. I think that's just fine...and so is his "blanket disclosure". There's plenty of room in the world for scrappy guys like this... always challenging the status quo.

Rand is a completely different animal. His knowledge is solid, he's very well-spoken and chooses those words carefully. I love his stuff. Very informative. But his reputation is everything to him. You can't behave like a hustler and get people to throw 10K of their hard-earned money your way every month. And I believe his approach is the right one...in his case. He needs for people to know that his objectivity is not for sale. Otherwise, his business is gone.

Shoemoney couldn't give a rat's ass about his rep for the most part. Take away what he's accomplished so far...and he'll just get up and start from scratch tomorrow.

Of the two, I found myself identifying more closely with Rand. But, whether focused and on point and well-researched or not...I still enjoyed the discussion. The only downside was that they were clearly having a difficult time hearing each other on the phone. That made for some awkwards gaps, and some lapses in communication.

Re: Blogging Full Disclosure Debacle – Grow Some Brass Ones

Chuck — Fri, 13 Jul 2007 17:38:41 -0000

Shoemoney couldn't give a rat's ass about his rep for the most part. Take away what he's accomplished so far...and he'll just get up and start from scratch tomorrow.

Re: Blogging Full Disclosure Debacle – Grow Some Brass Ones

Fitness guy — Tue, 19 Jun 2007 09:27:16 -0000

In response to Shazad's comment: Isn't this exactly the reason a blanket disclosure statement is necessary?

Re: Blogging Full Disclosure Debacle – Grow Some Brass Ones

Fitness guy — Tue, 19 Jun 2007 09:27:16 -0000

In response to Shazad's comment: Isn't this exactly the reason a blanket disclosure statement is necessary?

Re: Blogging Full Disclosure Debacle – Grow Some Brass Ones

Bill Hartzer — Tue, 12 Jun 2007 15:18:37 -0000

I understand the logic here. But, affiliates chooose to do business or not do business with companies like Clickbank. And it's my opinion that companies like Clickbank can make up any rules they want to. Since the affiliate is not a consumer then they don't have to do business with Clickbank--and vice versa. Clickbank deserves the right to pay or 'not pay' companies or individuals who send them traffic.

A company can decide that their affiliates must have a certain type of link on their site in order to get paid. They can decide whether or not the affiliate must disclose that they're an affiliate. Of course the affiliate shouldn't misrepresent themselves, though.

When it comes to disclosure, I don't personally think the USA's FTC can get involved--this is a business transaction that doesn't necessarily directly involves the consumer. It's a referral...and the consumer clicks on a link and goes on over to another site where such things should be disclosed (like guarantees, warranties, etc. etc.).

Re: Blogging Full Disclosure Debacle – Grow Some Brass Ones

Bill Hartzer — Tue, 12 Jun 2007 15:18:37 -0000

Re: Blogging Full Disclosure Debacle – Grow Some Brass Ones

shazad — Sat, 09 Jun 2007 18:32:05 -0000

I think there is just too much information to regulate i mean how many opinions, recommendations or advertising can one distinguish between.

Re: Blogging Full Disclosure Debacle – Grow Some Brass Ones

shazad — Sat, 09 Jun 2007 18:32:05 -0000

I think there is just too much information to regulate i mean how many opinions, recommendations or advertising can one distinguish between.

Re: Blogging Full Disclosure Debacle – Grow Some Brass Ones

AndyBeard — Sat, 09 Jun 2007 16:14:43 -0000

You mean you either tell people up front (a disclosure policy), or explain that to the FTC or a jury at a later date?

p.s. I have a comments policy too

Re: Blogging Full Disclosure Debacle – Grow Some Brass Ones

AndyBeard — Sat, 09 Jun 2007 16:14:43 -0000

You mean you either tell people up front (a disclosure policy), or explain that to the FTC or a jury at a later date?

p.s. I have a comments policy too

Re: Blogging Full Disclosure Debacle – Grow Some Brass Ones

Money From Home — Sat, 09 Jun 2007 16:04:27 -0000

I am with shoemoney on this. You have to assume that if I am talking about it than I will directly or indirectly be making money from it.

Re: Blogging Full Disclosure Debacle – Grow Some Brass Ones

Money From Home — Sat, 09 Jun 2007 16:04:27 -0000

I am with shoemoney on this. You have to assume that if I am talking about it than I will directly or indirectly be making money from it.

Re: Blogging Full Disclosure Debacle – Grow Some Brass Ones

AndyBeard — Sat, 09 Jun 2007 00:34:52 -0000

I had to make the link to the LA Times unclickable, because a while ago I unearthed that they don't allow deep linking in their terms of service.

Re: Blogging Full Disclosure Debacle – Grow Some Brass Ones

AndyBeard — Sat, 09 Jun 2007 00:34:52 -0000

I had to make the link to the LA Times unclickable, because a while ago I unearthed that they don't allow deep linking in their terms of service.

Re: Blogging Full Disclosure Debacle – Grow Some Brass Ones

CVOS Netpaths — Sat, 09 Jun 2007 00:21:26 -0000

Any group receiving anything of value must disclose this fact. Here is an example from a nonprofit law center. Imagine if you just gave $1000 to charity and they neglected to disclose that they were buying the executives new plasma TVs latimes.com/news/local/oran...

http://allianceforjustice.o...

Re: Blogging Full Disclosure Debacle – Grow Some Brass Ones

CVOS Netpaths — Sat, 09 Jun 2007 00:21:26 -0000

http://allianceforjustice.o...

Re: Blogging Full Disclosure Debacle – Grow Some Brass Ones

AndyBeard — Fri, 08 Jun 2007 12:11:25 -0000

Bill I do agree that Clickbank's interpretation of the law is their own.
Other lawyers, one of whom has already commented here and not disagreed, and there are references to 2 other lawyers, have also spoken about this, and in the past I have also linked through to more.

Until these things are tested in court in the US, it is all interpretation.

Clickbank have decided that their affiliates should comply with the FTC documents they link to. Just because other affiliate networks haven't taken action might be because they haven't been dragged through the courts recently on other issues (e.g. CAN-SPAM complaints against some of their affiliates)

Clickbank definitely know about the golden rule of marketing - "Cover Your Ar*e"

If you can find me a lawyer who has specifically stated that this does not apply to affiliate marketing, in public, and who has extensive experience in internet law, I would be glad to read it and link through.
I myself can point to lawyers who selectively avoid the subject, such as Michael Arrington, but I am not sure if he is practicing, and his specialisation.

I should note that Brian from Copyblogger used to work in Internet Law, and Mike Young specialises in it.

I also don't forget that my content gets distributed by email in 2 ways.

1. RSS subscription by email
2. Comment subscriptions

Both kinds of email can contain commercial messages, either from me, or sometimes from spammers.

I have links to contact details and my disclosure in feeds, and also have statements even in my comment subscriptions.

If you followed the link to my article on Feedburner, you might notice that I dragged them over the coals slightly because of CAN-SPAM compliance.

They have people who are non-practicing lawyers working in top management, you would expect them to have been in full compliance for years, yet getting a small change to allow you to include a commercial statement has been an uphill struggle.

I live in Poland, my company is registered in the UK, but I still have to run my business complying with US regulations, and the FTC is regulations, not whimsy.

Re: Blogging Full Disclosure Debacle – Grow Some Brass Ones

AndyBeard — Fri, 08 Jun 2007 12:11:25 -0000

Until these things are tested in court in the US, it is all interpretation.

Clickbank definitely know about the golden rule of marketing - "Cover Your Ar*e"

I should note that Brian from Copyblogger used to work in Internet Law, and Mike Young specialises in it.

I also don't forget that my content gets distributed by email in 2 ways.

1. RSS subscription by email
2. Comment subscriptions

Both kinds of email can contain commercial messages, either from me, or sometimes from spammers.

I have links to contact details and my disclosure in feeds, and also have statements even in my comment subscriptions.

If you followed the link to my article on Feedburner, you might notice that I dragged them over the coals slightly because of CAN-SPAM compliance.

I live in Poland, my company is registered in the UK, but I still have to run my business complying with US regulations, and the FTC is regulations, not whimsy.

Re: Blogging Full Disclosure Debacle – Grow Some Brass Ones

Bill Hartzer — Fri, 08 Jun 2007 11:42:24 -0000

Andy, it's about time someone call them out on this. I agree with you that they certainly didn't do a lot of fact-checking before the debate. But, consider that they didn't have a lot of time to do that fact-checking and research about the issue. Sometimes the best debates are those that come up on a whim.

I have to disagree with your remark about "regulations". How could you possibly call these disclosure requirements "regulations"? They are simply "requirements" that are made up by the company--and there are a lot of affiliate-related "companies" I won't do business with or "endorse" because of those silly "requirements".

I agree with you, Amanda--it's best to be honest with your readers and being honest means "full disclosure" when it's appropriate to do so.

El Yanqui, that's a good point--I agree that bloggers would make it a lot easier on themselves if they added a "disclosure policy" to their site. Perhaps just like "privacy policies" us bloggers should be adding "disclosure policies".

Re: Blogging Full Disclosure Debacle – Grow Some Brass Ones

Bill Hartzer — Fri, 08 Jun 2007 11:42:24 -0000

I agree with you, Amanda--it's best to be honest with your readers and being honest means "full disclosure" when it's appropriate to do so.

Re: Blogging Full Disclosure Debacle – Grow Some Brass Ones

Amanda — Fri, 08 Jun 2007 11:18:40 -0000

I have to say I think full disclosure policy is best. I write a disclosure and I explain where the money goes. I dont like to let people think I'm whoring myself out there not so much as I care what they think I just dont want to lose readers if they notice more posts that are reviews or more ads occasionally when I need the extra money.

Re: Blogging Full Disclosure Debacle – Grow Some Brass Ones

Amanda — Fri, 08 Jun 2007 11:18:40 -0000

Re: Blogging Full Disclosure Debacle – Grow Some Brass Ones

Michael Webster — Fri, 08 Jun 2007 10:39:49 -0000

Andy, I am also an attorney -from Ontario, which has in this case very similar laws to the U.S.

The point I raised several months ago was that there were at least two disclosure issues.

1. Section 5, of the FTC Act, pertaining to WOMA.

But also, more importantly for affiliate marketers who are marketing a system for earning money,

2. The new business opportunity rule promulgated by the FTC, which doesn't have the force of law yet. But it is will require a 2 page disclosure, which most affiliate marketers won't know about.

(There is a current biz op rule which probably won't catch most affiliate marketers.)

In conclusion, it is not just word of mouth that affiliate marketers selling systems for earning money have to be worried about.

And yes, the FTC goes after unregistered biz ops all the time.

Re: Blogging Full Disclosure Debacle – Grow Some Brass Ones

Michael Webster — Fri, 08 Jun 2007 10:39:49 -0000

Andy, I am also an attorney -from Ontario, which has in this case very similar laws to the U.S.

The point I raised several months ago was that there were at least two disclosure issues.

1. Section 5, of the FTC Act, pertaining to WOMA.

But also, more importantly for affiliate marketers who are marketing a system for earning money,

2. The new business opportunity rule promulgated by the FTC, which doesn't have the force of law yet. But it is will require a 2 page disclosure, which most affiliate marketers won't know about.

(There is a current biz op rule which probably won't catch most affiliate marketers.)

In conclusion, it is not just word of mouth that affiliate marketers selling systems for earning money have to be worried about.

And yes, the FTC goes after unregistered biz ops all the time.

Re: Blogging Full Disclosure Debacle – Grow Some Brass Ones

AndyBeard — Fri, 08 Jun 2007 10:23:45 -0000

As I mentioned above, around the same time there were a number of posts on the subject by lawyers, and the article by Mike Young on the Copywriters Blog is also a very good read.

The FTC considers it to be a deceptive trade practice to provide consumers with allegedly independent information that in fact is motivated by monetary and other incentives. According to Mary K. Engle at the FTC, â€œif youâ€™re being paid, you should disclose that."

I bolded one part in that quote, but the interesting part in this debate is the "other incentives", plus also affiliate marketing has monetary incentive, just like writing a paid post, and maybe more so.